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The truth of the matter
The truth of the matter -- Posted by junkman999 on 05-02-04 19:50
It has been fun debating Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak over these last
couple of months. I have to believe that the truth of the matter is
somewhere in the middle of the extremes.
Some of the folks at Degreeinfo.com have probably overstated their
case. While there are serious issues regarding SA degrees, there
isn't much evidence of widespread firing or arrests of SA degree
holders. My point seems more likely - SA degrees can lead to more
subtle problems, such as having your resume ignored in a job search
(as is the case in Michigan). Some folks have been embarassed in the
press with SA degrees. In some limited cases, three of which I can
attest to, firings can happen.
Tony Pina's post from degreeinfo.com - shown below - is perfectly
reasonable to me and quite consistent with what I have seen.
Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak's logic is much worse, however, than the
eager beaver degreeinfo.com crowd's. They suggest effectively, "Since
no one can show me a case of a SA degree holder being fired or
arrested, they must be good." This is flawed logic. Before readers
spend thousands of dollars and hours of their time persuing a degree
that's sole claim to fame is that "no ever got fired for having one",
they probably need to check out the RA options. There may be a few
cases were SA degrees make sense - perhaps for personal enjoyment (?)
- but their utility is really weak. With all the new RA options, why
go for second best?
As for my three cases - I won't reveal the specifics. I will say all
three involved people with degrees from Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak's
list of school - two with doctorates and one with a masters degree.
One person was dropped from consideration for a full-time job because
of his degree. The other two lost adjunct teaching positions due to
accreditation standards that wouldn't accept their non-RA degrees.
Three cases doesn't make a trend - but then Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak
can't say it never happens. Also, consider the fourth case of the
poor ECU student with an SA (well, country approved) degree.
Finally, as for the research that Dan/Bobblehead/Ray ask for - the
only studies I know of are John Bear's and Rich Douglas' work. These
show that non-RA degrees have less utility than RA degrees, at least
among university registrars. As for employers, the picture is less
clear.
Hugs and kisses - Junkman
------------------------
For higher ed positions, listing non-accredited degrees is typically
not a good idea. I have noted one exception where this was not a
problem, based on over seven years at a California community college:
For community college teaching positions, I have seen adjunct faculty
hired with RA bachelors & master degrees and non-RA state-approved
doctorates. Having said that, I do have to clarify a few things:
1. The positions did not require a doctorate, they only required a
masters degree.
2. The non-RA doctorate did not seem to have a negative influence in
the hiring decision. It was not clear if the non-RA doctorate was
considered an advantage.
3. The non-RA doctorate was not recognized by the college and those
faculty were listed in college literature showing the RA masters as
their highest degree.
4. Faculty who received non-RA doctorates after they were hired did
not get the doctoral step raises received by those who completed RA
doctorates.
5. Those applying for administrative positions often competed against
other candidates with RA PhD/EdD degrees. Those candidates with non-RA
doctorates were always eliminated early.
6. While non-RA doctorates appeared to have some level of
acceptability, unaccredited BA and MA degrees were never deemed to be
acceptable.
7. We had so few instances of people with nationally accredited
degrees (e.g DETC) that I really can't comment. My guess is that they
would have been accepted at the community college.
Just one person's observation...
Tony Pina
Cal State U San Bernardino
------------------
Re: The truth of the matter -- Posted by Frost on 05-03-04 03:29
Can someone inform we non-U.S. people what a "SA" degree is and what a "RA"
degree is? We have legitimate degrees from accredited universities or we
don't have a degree, that's it! Is this a peculiarly U.S. phenomenon?
Regards
Adrian
"junkman999"
wrote in message
news:857f433a.0405021850.d1df081@posting.google.com...
> It has been fun debating Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak over these last
> couple of months. I have to believe that the truth of the matter is
> somewhere in the middle of the extremes.
>
> Some of the folks at Degreeinfo.com have probably overstated their
> case. While there are serious issues regarding SA degrees, there
> isn't much evidence of widespread firing or arrests of SA degree
> holders. My point seems more likely - SA degrees can lead to more
> subtle problems, such as having your resume ignored in a job search
> (as is the case in Michigan). Some folks have been embarassed in the
> press with SA degrees. In some limited cases, three of which I can
> attest to, firings can happen.
>
> Tony Pina's post from degreeinfo.com - shown below - is perfectly
> reasonable to me and quite consistent with what I have seen.
>
> Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak's logic is much worse, however, than the
> eager beaver degreeinfo.com crowd's. They suggest effectively, "Since
> no one can show me a case of a SA degree holder being fired or
> arrested, they must be good." This is flawed logic. Before readers
> spend thousands of dollars and hours of their time persuing a degree
> that's sole claim to fame is that "no ever got fired for having one",
> they probably need to check out the RA options. There may be a few
> cases were SA degrees make sense - perhaps for personal enjoyment (?)
> - but their utility is really weak. With all the new RA options, why
> go for second best?
>
> As for my three cases - I won't reveal the specifics. I will say all
> three involved people with degrees from Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak's
> list of school - two with doctorates and one with a masters degree.
> One person was dropped from consideration for a full-time job because
> of his degree. The other two lost adjunct teaching positions due to
> accreditation standards that wouldn't accept their non-RA degrees.
> Three cases doesn't make a trend - but then Dan/Bobblehead/Ray Tumak
> can't say it never happens. Also, consider the fourth case of the
> poor ECU student with an SA (well, country approved) degree.
>
> Finally, as for the research that Dan/Bobblehead/Ray ask for - the
> only studies I know of are John Bear's and Rich Douglas' work. These
> show that non-RA degrees have less utility than RA degrees, at least
> among university registrars. As for employers, the picture is less
> clear.
>
> Hugs and kisses - Junkman
>
> ------------------------
> For higher ed positions, listing non-accredited degrees is typically
> not a good idea. I have noted one exception where this was not a
> problem, based on over seven years at a California community college:
>
> For community college teaching positions, I have seen adjunct faculty
> hired with RA bachelors & master degrees and non-RA state-approved
> doctorates. Having said that, I do have to clarify a few things:
>
> 1. The positions did not require a doctorate, they only required a
> masters degree.
> 2. The non-RA doctorate did not seem to have a negative influence in
> the hiring decision. It was not clear if the non-RA doctorate was
> considered an advantage.
> 3. The non-RA doctorate was not recognized by the college and those
> faculty were listed in college literature showing the RA masters as
> their highest degree.
> 4. Faculty who received non-RA doctorates after they were hired did
> not get the doctoral step raises received by those who completed RA
> doctorates.
> 5. Those applying for administrative positions often competed against
> other candidates with RA PhD/EdD degrees. Those candidates with non-RA
> doctorates were always eliminated early.
> 6. While non-RA doctorates appeared to have some level of
> acceptability, unaccredited BA and MA degrees were never deemed to be
> acceptable.
> 7. We had so few instances of people with nationally accredited
> degrees (e.g DETC) that I really can't comment. My guess is that they
> would have been accepted at the community college.
>
> Just one person's observation...
>
> Tony Pina
> Cal State U San Bernardino
>
> ------------------
Re: The truth of the matter -- Posted by junkman999 on 05-03-04 10:12
Adrian - The U.S. has a somewhat different system for accrediting
colleges then do other nations. All schools have to operate under the
state laws of the state in which they are located. In some states,
such as California, this means that the school is actually reviewed by
a state agency. In other states, such as Wyoming, schools have very
little monitoring from the state.
Beyond the state level, there is a system of accreditaiton. Most
reputable schools seek "regional accreditation" (RA) from one of six
bodies that cover given areas of the U.S. SACS (Southern Association)
covers the southeast United States, for example. Many people
(including most of the folks at degreeinfo.com) consider RA to be the
basic quality assuarance seal that one should look for in a college or
university.
There are a couple of "National Accreditors" such as DETC that do a
similar, although many think less rigorous job, for schools anywhere
in the U.S.
Beyond regional accreditation, there are program specific accreditors
such as APA (psychology), ATS (theology), ABA (law), ABET
(engineering), AACSB and ACBSP (business) and others. These groups
leave institutional accrediting for the regional bodies, but rather
focus on specific programs. Virtually all schools in the U.S.
accredited by the professional accreditors are also regionally
accredited.
The basic discussion going on here is between Dan/BobbleHead/Ray Tamak
who is trying to argue for the usefulness of SA (state approved)
degrees. I'm trying to say that SA schools lack utility since there
degrees are not as widely accepted as RA.
Junkman
"Frost" wrote in message news:...
> Can someone inform we non-U.S. people what a "SA" degree is and what a "RA"
> degree is? We have legitimate degrees from accredited universities or we
> don't have a degree, that's it! Is this a peculiarly U.S. phenomenon?
>
> Regards
>
> Adrian
>
>
Re: The truth of the matter -- Posted by Frost on 05-04-04 05:21
Junkman
Thank you for the explanation. We do have certain Uni's that are regarded
more highly than others, but in Australia we seem to get most of our degrees
fairly widely accepted, not just in Australia but also in Asia and Europe.
My degrees are in Education, Commerce and Music and they were totally
accepted when I worked in the U.S. and in Asia. There are certain Uni's
that have a reputation in a particular field, eg, Sydney U for Medicine,
etc.
We think we are fortunate in Australia, in that all of our Uni's have to
meet Federal standards, even the private ones, and all have to teach to
Australia wide standards.
Good luck with the campaign. I think all Uni's should have a minimum
acceptable standard that is Internationally recognised.
Adrian
"junkman999" wrote in message
news:857f433a.0405030912.326e6e8@posting.google.com...
> Adrian - The U.S. has a somewhat different system for accrediting
> colleges then do other nations. All schools have to operate under the
> state laws of the state in which they are located. In some states,
> such as California, this means that the school is actually reviewed by
> a state agency. In other states, such as Wyoming, schools have very
> little monitoring from the state.
>
> Beyond the state level, there is a system of accreditaiton. Most
> reputable schools seek "regional accreditation" (RA) from one of six
> bodies that cover given areas of the U.S. SACS (Southern Association)
> covers the southeast United States, for example. Many people
> (including most of the folks at degreeinfo.com) consider RA to be the
> basic quality assuarance seal that one should look for in a college or
> university.
>
> There are a couple of "National Accreditors" such as DETC that do a
> similar, although many think less rigorous job, for schools anywhere
> in the U.S.
>
> Beyond regional accreditation, there are program specific accreditors
> such as APA (psychology), ATS (theology), ABA (law), ABET
> (engineering), AACSB and ACBSP (business) and others. These groups
> leave institutional accrediting for the regional bodies, but rather
> focus on specific programs. Virtually all schools in the U.S.
> accredited by the professional accreditors are also regionally
> accredited.
>
> The basic discussion going on here is between Dan/BobbleHead/Ray Tamak
> who is trying to argue for the usefulness of SA (state approved)
> degrees. I'm trying to say that SA schools lack utility since there
> degrees are not as widely accepted as RA.
>
> Junkman
>
> "Frost" wrote in message
news:...
> > Can someone inform we non-U.S. people what a "SA" degree is and what a
"RA"
> > degree is? We have legitimate degrees from accredited universities or
we
> > don't have a degree, that's it! Is this a peculiarly U.S. phenomenon?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> >
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